rhino1998 I see your logic, its making me lean towards no armor movement penalty or bonus, but instead just a manupilation bonus. They are effective at over coming natural weakness, but they have no innate advantage. 

I dont currently use gloomeclasses, but that is good to know and will go into the pile of notes i have growing. Im actively working on adding smithing plus support to provide dwarfs, goblins and maybe kobolds improvements to metal crafting. 

I have been humming and hawing over giving humans a 10% expMULT for xskills tho. I wanted to look into it more indepth and see if i could give the races bonus XP towards perfered activities. But im also not sure as I also like the idea of a elf who really gets into mining and uses xskills to make up the gap. 

I also wanted to take a look at CANjewlery and the minecraft enchanting mod i saw to see if theres anything i could play with there as well. If i could give elves the ability to enchant or cast magic better. That would be ideal. 

Dwarfs should be tanky, forge masters, elves magical archers and masters of husbandry, goblins are the traders and economical masters, humans are just the nutural choice with a bit of qol for combat, orcs are your big hungry warriors with zero benifit to non combat tasks, and kobolds are glass cannon underground dewellers, good at digging and combat but lack the skill of the dwarves.

So i have lots of work to go!

W.R.T dwarves & armor, my logic was that they have thick, stocky thighs, so while their legs are short, they're capable of moving the armor effectively w/o affecting their movespeed as much. (Also they're short so there's less weight in the first place for an equivalent thickness of armor). At no point would the armor make them faster though. I fully agree they're a slow race.

Regarding elves, fair enough

Found a few more stats which could be tweaked

xskills has `expMult`

GloomeClasses has `fireDamage`, `rustedDamage`, `damageFromMechanicals`, `surfaceStabilityLoss`, and `caveStabilityLoss`

The idea of dwarves is while they are adept at wearing heavy armor being able to perform actions quickly in it. They are very short, and thus heavy blunky armor does not lend its favor to their shorter stature. Basically a short, heavily armored turtle. Killing it is hard, hurting it is hard. But its not going to chase after you like say a screaming 8ft orc. They may require a bit more benifit to natural damage reduction. They should be tanky not mobile. 

After all they are a creature that spends much time not moving much. Slowly digging though the underground, or standing in front of a forge. A enemy can sneak up onto them and well... its a 4ft metal rock. Its not dying fast. Dwarfs are ment to be a mix of a combat and a economy race. 

Elves i wanted more focused as a ranged combat class. I might readd the armor movement penalty, im currently actively testing elfs a lot as range is hard to balance. A elf wearing plate isn't unheard of in fiction either. Normally its enchanted and sleak but plate none the less. They should innately be frail and thus even with plate actively want to avoid being in a melee. Which will get the player to perfer lighter armors anyways. They should want to avoid being hit, but have the option of armor if they must.

Also Thank you for the infomation on teady aim. It appear i need to update my strings and flip things back then. 

I actually have vessel loot currently in one of my test for goblins, currently playing around with healing effectiveness as a offset for hungerrate, since blackguard has such a large penalty as is. I want to try to avoid situations where any given class+race results in some absurd benifit or negitive if it doesnt fill a theme strongly.

If armordurability loss works into the negitive i might actually give that to dwarfs, but as the server im designing this for uses smithing plus, i might just go with that. I have only looked over some of the other mods breifly thus far. 

Thanks for the contuined help rhino1998 its more then i could have asked.

In other media I usually see dwarves armored quite heavily so I'm surprised that you actually intended for them to have worse armor mobility. For elves I usually see them in light armor.

Originally I gave elves better base speed but worse armor affectedness so they'd prefer lighter armor, and dwarves (while slower by default) would be able to wear heavier armor with less of a downside (especially when also using a class that reduces armor impact). In theory a very heavily armored dwarf could be faster than a very heavily armored elf.

My decisions were not based around PVP though. It is hard to account for movement generally when people might be using any combination of other movement mods.

Regarding steadyAim, the value is squared in the calculation so a big negative value or a big positive value will both create stability. Instability lies around steadyAim == 0. All the CO armor has negative steadyAim as a detriment.

_clientAimingSystem.DriftMultiplier *= 1 / Math.Clamp(entity.Stats.GetBlended("steadyAim") * entity.Stats.GetBlended("steadyAim"), 0.25f, 4f);
_clientAimingSystem.TwitchMultiplier *= 1 / Math.Clamp(entity.Stats.GetBlended("steadyAim") * entity.Stats.GetBlended("steadyAim"), 0.25f, 4f);

(Also the lang files use positive steadyAim as lowering aim drift)

"game:charattribute-steadyAim-0.5": "50% less aim drift",
"game:charattribute-steadyAim--0.3": "30% more aim drift",

I think the base mod (overhaullib) has a bit of a bug and should clamp steadyAim so it doesn't go strongly negative before squaring.



Regarding other downsides, I'm not sure. Slowness does feel bad. Adding negative proficiencies is kinda pointless as people will prefer weapons they're proficient in anyways. `hungerrate` is okay but too much is bad too. `healingeffectivness` works too (typo is intentional as it is also that way throughout the codebase). Negative `mechanicalsDamage` could be interesting as "weakness". `gliderSpeedMax` and `gliderLiftMax` also exist (not sure how they work). `wholeVesselLootChance` also exists. `armorDurabilityLoss` also exists, although that might be too punishing.
`
Also, SmithingPlus has `sp:smithingQuality` which could be interesting (it affects durability of smithed products) and `sp:toolRepairPenalty`, but that is probably too specific for a race trait. And SleepNeed has `energyrate`

Not a nit at all, Thanks for pointing out the armor mobility, i got all sorts of turned around on that. It also got me to double check a few other mods and fix them after comparing them to the combat overhaul github and some ingame testing. So things should be more accurate now to my intentions. Like apprently steadyaim was also inverted. Setting it to -200 entirely removed aim drift which is what the in game description calls it. And i had elves with a positve amount and orcs with negitive! Very backwards from intention.

Also after looking though the CO github i think i found the correct attributes but im not 100% sure, to be able to use damage taken values to balance with. I really disliked using armor movement penalties as my primeary downside. Since moving slow feels bad its just not great UX and should be avoided generally but i didn't have a good alterative. Hopfully this works, i dont have anyone to pvp with to really test so heres hoping i got it right on the first try!

I do still feel im not quiet on the money with the "theme" of each race tho. So more play testing and blancing will have to be done! Glad you arn't upset that i just kinda forked your mod with out asking. rhino1998

Also, `armorManipulationSpeedAffectedness` could be a fun attribute to tweak for the various races. It affects heavy armor's impact on attack speed and bow drawing (and sling damage/projectile velocity).

There are also stats for various weird things like `playerHeadDamageFactor` (and all the other body parts) and `secondChanceCooldown`/`secondChanceGracePeriod` (not sure what those do exactly tho). `mechanicalsDamage` and `rangedWeaponsAcc` also exist.

(These are all CO stats)

Also, minor nit, but your description (this mod page) for dwarf/elf armor mobility is backwards. Dwarves have "armorWalkSpeedAffectedness": -0.1, which is an advantage which gives a 10% lower impact of armor on walk speed. (and similar, but inverse thing for the elf description). The description/actual trait for the other races lines up correctly tho.

Nice, mine was super unpolished. This looks good

GON I was actually just working on that!

Could you include what the traits are in your mod description so we can see what it does ?